Japanese

[Bobtheduck]

I'm asking my Japanese (well, native Japanese speaker) friends this question on facebook, will see if I get a response (3 Kansai-ben, 1 Hokkaido-ben, but it's not like I could say "I want a Toukyou-ben speaking friend"). I have been corrected A LOT by Japanese friends on being overly formal, so I think that "okuni" one is one of those situations.

[Kaori]

Originally posted by Bobtheduck (post: 1410638): I'm asking my Japanese (well, native Japanese speaker) friends this question on facebook, will see if I get a response (3 Kansai-ben, 1 Hokkaido-ben, but it's not like I could say "I want a Toukyou-ben speaking friend").

Cool; you will probably get an answer much quicker than I will. I'm curious to see what they have to say.

Originally posted by Bobtheduck (post: 1410638): I have been corrected A LOT by Japanese friends on being overly formal, so I think that "okuni" one is one of those situations.

I'm aware of the fact that if you are actually friends with someone, then you usually use plain form instead of normal-polite form, because to continue to use polite form with someone who is trying to be your friend makes it seem as if you are trying to keep them at a distance, and that can be offensive. So yes, it's true that in some situations it can be a mistake to use language that is too formal. Probably the reason that your friends are correcting you on being overly formal is because they are your friends, and they don't want you to be excessively stiff and formal with them.

Conversely, "Okuni wa dochira desu ka?" is a getting-to-know-you question, something that you would probably ask the very first time you meet someone--and when talking to someone you don't know well, or meeting someone for the first time, you want to be polite. Also, I would think that by the time you become close enough to someone to use plain form instead of polite form, you wouldn't need to ask such a basic question as what country they are from.

[Bobtheduck]

Originally posted by Kaori (post: 1410639): Cool; you will probably get an answer much quicker than I will. I'm curious to see what they have to say. I'm aware of the fact that if you are actually friends with someone, then you usually use plain form instead of normal-polite form, because to continue to use polite form with someone who is trying to be your friend makes it seem as if you are trying to keep them at a distance, and that can be offensive. So yes, it's true that in some situations it can be a mistake to use language that is too formal. Probably the reason that your friends are correcting you on being overly formal is because they are your friends, and they don't want you to be excessively stiff and formal with them. Conversely, "Okuni wa dochira desu ka?" is a getting-to-know-you question, something that you would probably ask the very first time you meet someone--and when talking to someone you don't know well, or meeting someone for the first time, you want to be polite. Also, I would think that by the time you become close enough to someone to use plain form instead of polite form, you wouldn't need to ask such a basic question as what country they are from.

Yeah, but even for every day... For instance, if I were talking to my boss, I probably would never use de gozaimasu (though customer service uses it) but that wasn't always the case. Same with de wa arimasen and ja arimasen... To make it polite, you say "Ja nai desu" and the other stuff is a bit outdated (except, as I said, for customer service... That's because the relationship is more than polite, it's subservient, which doesn't need to be the case for anything else, unless you're a huge suck up) I was taught in my Japanese class, however, to use De wa arimasen. The Japanese people in the class for an easy a (yeah, there were a few of them) all hated that stuff. They said the teacher was way too old fashioned.

[goldenspines]

Originally posted by Bobtheduck (post: 1410626): While I can't show you the videos unless you're a member, THIS MAY WORK and it's at least part (though a small part) of what I was saying http://www.yesjapan.com/YJ6/index.ph...earch&var2=ALL http://www.yesjapan.com/YJ6/index.ph...earch&var2=ALL It doesn't say who answered the question, but again, the voice sample is recorded TWICE with two different Japanese speakers, both saying nanijin. And they do, normally, do Toukyou-ben. They have people from all over Japan, though. I've found at leas one site that says "Okuni wa dochira desu ka" is outdated Japanese, and to be honest, many Japanese teacher in the US USE OUTDATED JAPANESE. Mine did. 1/3 of my class was Japanese (my age) and they said her class was horrible because she's so old fashioned.

I don't often fully trust websites about Japanese unless they are recommended by someone I know who is Japanese.
As I did mention before, I was taught the Tokyo dialect, which may be "outdated" (though our textbooks were published in Japan in 2009, and the dictionary I have was also published in Tokyo in 1999 and it doesn't have nanjin anywhere in it), but the Japanese transfer students we had (who helped us in our class) and even the Japanese tutor from Osaka agreed with how our sensei taught things.

Quote: Yeah, but even for every day... For instance, if I were talking to my boss, I probably would never use de gozaimasu (though customer service uses it) but that wasn't always the case. Same with de wa arimasen and ja arimasen... To make it polite, you say "Ja nai desu" and the other stuff is a bit outdated (except, as I said, for customer service... That's because the relationship is more than polite, it's subservient, which doesn't need to be the case for anything else, unless you're a huge suck up) I was taught in my Japanese class, however, to use De wa arimasen. The Japanese people in the class for an easy a (yeah, there were a few of them) all hated that stuff. They said the teacher was way too old fashioned.

"Ja nai desu" is the short/informal form of "ja arimasen", so I'm a bit unsure why you think that it's more polite. Granted, in everyday speech with people you know, "ja nai desu" is more polite towards them, because like Kaori mentioned, if you continue to speak in formal/long form with someone you already know, it will seem rather rude to them (like you are keeping your distance).

Though, one must learn to crawl before he can run, hence why it's so important to learn the long forms of Japanese sentences/words. This is especially important if you are speaking to someone older in Japanese or a esteemed professor. Because if you speak to them in short form like you do with your friends, they will be very insulted, even if you have known them for a long time.

[Bobtheduck]

"ja nai desu" is more polite than "ja nai" without the "desu" In other words, the extended "arimasen" part isn't really necessary for the average conversation. Maybe I'll ask my Japanese friends about that, too..

This is the response I got from one Japanese friend (kansai-ben),

Quote: Ok, in my opinion, it depends on what you wanna ask.....if you want to ask "Where are you from?," I would ask "Doko kala kolalemashita ka?," and If you wanna ask: "What's your nationality?," I would ask "Kokuseki ha doko desuka?".....anyhow, Nanijin desuka? sounds like broken Japanese that only close friends can use, and Okuni wa dochira desuka? is much more polite and respectful. hope it helps...

So she said "Nanijin desuka" is "broken Japanese" but she said "only close friends can use it" (Not sure she uses "broken" in the same sense than an English speaker would in the same context) She did say the "okuni" thing was more polite, but she didn't actually say this was the right way...

I'll let you know if I get any opposing views on the subject (I tagged it for 4 friends)... I'm also going to put my friend's response in the YesJapan ask a teacher forum and see what they say.

[KougaHane]

I have heard about 3 different words translated as you, kimi, anata, and omae, can someone please tell me the difference between them? also, what does the titles -senpai and -tan mean?

[LadyRushia]

"kimi" is informal and possibly rude, "anata" is like regular, and "omae" is rude/I've only heard it used when one person is mad at someone else. It's something like that, but I'm not expert.

-senpai is used for students who are in a higher grade that you and -tan is a more slangish rendition of -chan, I think.

[Lynna]

Originally posted by LadyRushia (post: 1411353): "kimi" is informal and possibly rude, "anata" is like regular, and "omae" is rude/I've only heard it used when one person is mad at someone else. It's something like that, but I'm not expert. -senpai is used for students who are in a higher grade that you and -tan is a more slangish rendition of -chan, I think.

I've acctually only heard '-tan' being used by little kids or people who are being really childish

[Bobtheduck]

san is neutral and can be used for anyone but teachers, I believe, and I suppose the Emperor or God.
sama is subservient, and not often used, except in reference to God / gods or in customer service (okyaku-sama, goshujin-sama)
senpai is deferential and applies to anyone in your group that's above you socially but not in charge, I believe (higher grade than you, for instance)
sensei is deferential and applies to teachers and doctors, but people use it to suck up to bosses, too.

kun is used with younger boys, but it's used occasionally with girls, too... Just not sure when it can be used with Girls.

chan is a kiddy form of san, chama is a kiddy form of sama, and tan? I only recently heard tan... well, it's on Nadesico, but I don't have a clue what it is... Chan is already kiddy, so I guess Tan is like... I'd say a moe thing, but I think Nadesico predates moe... maybe? I don't know.

Whatever you do, NEVER USE someone's family ("last" in western terms) name without an extension. Using a given ("first" in western terms) name without an extension is ok if you're REALLY REALLY REALLY familiar with them, but that would be like for best friend status, or lovers.

[Jawz]

the honorific -tan means the same thing as chan it's more like a mispronounced version, and it's kinda like baby talk, because only little kids use it...

'sakana wa tonde imasu'= 'the fish is jumping'..... all i know in japanese other than honorifics, are random words and sentences... i can also say 'tori wa odote imasu' which means 'the bird is dancing' ^^ and, i can count to ten

[ShiroiHikari]

I think "kun" can be used for a female in a business-like setting, like a male boss addressing his female employee. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe you can also address someone as "sensei" if they're a tradesman/artist/writer/etc. Like, you might call Oda Eiichiro "Oda-sensei".

"Kimi" is quite familiar and I believe only male speakers use it. "Omae" is vulgar and is also mostly used by males. In other words, dudes hanging out with their close dude friends can call each other "omae" or "kimi", but otherwise, it probably shouldn't be used. I guess a girl could call her close girl friends "omae", but it would be pretty hilarious. XD

Also, adults do not say "tan" unless they're trying to be funny. XD You're not supposed to attach honorifics to your own name, either. It makes you come across as really weird. (But it's funny in anime.)

[Bobtheduck]

Originally posted by Jawz (post: 1412126): the honorific -tan means the same thing as chan it's more like a mispronounced version, and it's kinda like baby talk, because only little kids use it... 'sakana wa tonde imasu'= 'the fish is jumping'..... all i know in japanese other than honorifics, are random words and sentences... i can also say 'tori wa odote imasu' which means 'the bird is dancing' ^^ and, i can count to ten

While the existence of exceptions and idioms prevents this from being a road to real fluency, if you break those sentences you know down into parts, you can rebuild more sentences with them and get a good foundation.

For instance, you can see that the way to build a present continuous is to use te form and imasu "tonde imasu", though the continuous form isn't as common in Japanese as it is in English, and quite often something that would be continuous form in English is just plain form in Japanese (or "polite" but not conjugated specifically like te imasu)

The important thing is to think how things are used, to substitute new verbs or nounds or adjectives to make simple new sentences, etc. Don't do what the kids at my school do, and just memorize dialogue... See how you can use the patterns in the dialogue to make new sentences.

As for name extensions, it's not just your OWN name you don't attach it to. You also don't attach it to the names of those in your own group when speaking to someone of another group. For instance, you don't use it with your own family when talking to someone of another family, or a member of your own company when talking to someone from another company (though an exception could possibly, I'm not sure, be made for your Boss... I don't know, though. That would be important to learn, because getting it wrong either way could be disastrous.)

[ShiroiHikari]

Doesn't Japanese have different words for family members depending on who you're talking to? Like, if you're talking about someone else's daughter, you use a different word than you would when speaking of your own daughter? I learned about it a while back but then I forgot. >.>

[Bobtheduck]

Originally posted by ShiroiHikari (post: 1412386): Doesn't Japanese have different words for family members depending on who you're talking to? Like, if you're talking about someone else's daughter, you use a different word than you would when speaking of your own daughter? I learned about it a while back but then I forgot. >.>

http://japanese.about.com/bl_family.htm covers what you're talking about in list form, but I think there's a bit more to it.

Most of the time, it's just adding "san" but, yeah, there are some words that are only for your own family and some only for others. It also depends on who you're talking to.

Another thing is while Japanese rarely has plurals, you do use them for pronouns related to people　or things that are anthropomorphised. Child is kodomo, another person's child is kodomo-san, your own children are kodomo tachi, and another person's children are kodomo-san tachi (or Okosan)

BTW, you don't use the words you use to talk ABOUT your family when talking TO your family... It's really strange

[Lynna]

@ Bobtheduck that list confuses me a little...because, in subbed anime, people seem to often refer to thier own family using the words for if it's not your family...like calling thier older brother "onii-san" and stuff...

[Bobtheduck]

Originally posted by Lynna (post: 1412909): @ Bobtheduck that list confuses me a little...because, in subbed anime, people seem to often refer to thier own family using the words for if it's not your family...like calling thier older brother "onii-san" and stuff...

That's why I clarified that it's incomplete. You don't refer to your own family with those words when talking to someone OUTSIDE OF YOUR FAMILY, and you only refer to THEIR families with those words. When talking about your own family to someone outside of your family, you use the first list. When talking to your own family, I'm not sure that you use the entirety of the second list (I don't think you'd use ojou to refer to your own daughter... ever) but you do use many of them... Just not when talking about them to anyone outside of your family...

Like I said, it's confusing.

[Kaori]

Addressing your own family members: generally speaking, if you are talking to someone older/higher than you, you address them respectfully, like this:

okaa-san (mother)
otou-san (father)
onii-san (older brother)
onee-san (older sister)

If you are addressing someone younger/lower in the family, like your younger sibling or your own child, you address them by their given name. Husbands and wives can address each other by their given names, I believe (no suffix), and wives often address their husbands as anata, which is usually translated as "dear" in that context.

Also, you'll sometimes hear family members refer to each other affectionately with -chan, like just nii-chan or tou-chan or kaa-chan instead of the more polite forms above. My impression is this is used more by young children, and not so much by older children or adults.

[Atria35]

^ Actually, that list isn't that incomplete/wrong. The "nii-san", "nee-san" thing originally was only for when talking ABOUT the family, but relatively recently has migrated into common usage for talking TO the family, with the words for talking to (such as "chichi-preferred suffix" for father and "haha-preferred suffix" for mother) being replaced with "otou-preferred suffix" and "okaa-preferred suffix". That's why you hear those words being used in anime- because it's a relatively new thing, and reflects the changes is word usage.

You can see thise being used in Naruto, for example- Sasuke often refers to his immidiate family members as "chichi-ue" and "haha-ue", cconsidered the old-fashioned but proper forms of adress for the parents when talking to them. But he refers to them as "otou-san" and "okaa-san" when talking to them to other people.

[Bobtheduck]

Originally posted by Atria35 (post: 1413765): ^ Actually, that list isn't that incomplete/wrong. The "nii-san", "nee-san" thing originally was only for when talking ABOUT the family, but relatively recently has migrated into common usage for talking TO the family, with the words for talking to (such as "chichi-preferred suffix" for father and "haha-preferred suffix" for mother) being replaced with "otou-preferred suffix" and "okaa-preferred suffix". That's why you hear those words being used in anime- because it's a relatively new thing, and reflects the changes is word usage. You can see thise being used in Naruto, for example- Sasuke often refers to his immidiate family members as "chichi-ue" and "haha-ue", cconsidered the old-fashioned but proper forms of adress for the parents when talking to them. But he refers to them as "otou-san" and "okaa-san" when talking to them to other people.

I was unaware of that, but that still makes it incomplete. This has been common for long enough that it's worth mentioning. Also, the list said that "Otou" and "okaa" was for talking about someone ELSE'S parents. So the issue is STILL confusing.

[Atria35]

Originally posted by Bobtheduck (post: 1414183): Also, the list said that "Otou" and "okaa" was for talking about someone ELSE'S parents. So the issue is STILL confusing.

I suspect that the list was just trying to simplify things. They are okay for talking about other people's parents. The only time you (formerly) weren't supposed to use them were when adressing your own father, because they're a bit more formal- "Chichi" is like "dad", and "otou" is like "Father". And since you don't want to show disrespect for other's parents, and do want to demonstrate respect for your own, it just works out like that.

And I don't exactly see how the list is incomplete- could you explain, please?

[Bobtheduck]

Originally posted by Atria35 (post: 1414189): And I don't exactly see how the list is incomplete- could you explain, please?

It doesn't take into account the way things are usually said now. It includes the words to talk ABOUT your family, and the words to talk ABOUT someone else's family, but the way you talk TO your own family is different in modern Japanese.

[Atria35]

^ Okay. Then it isn't incomplete, it's outdated XD