Japanese

[Lynna]

due to my extream lack of time and money, I'm trying to learn Japanese over the internet. On my own.
Its...sorta working. I've found some helpfull sites, but there is something that confuses me: what is the placement of verbs in a sentance?If anyone knows or knows a site that could help me, I would be very gratfull!
Japanese is a very confusing language...but it's fun! I'm working at it...
Arigato gozaimasu!

[Rewin]

The verb is always at the end of the sentence with the exception of questions, then the particle "ka" goes at the end.
If you have a Nintendo DS I highly recommend getting the "My Japanese Coach" program, so far I have been very happy with it.

[Lynna]

Thanks! Unfortunaitly, I don't have a DS....
Arigato! and if anyone has anymore tips, I would be very gratfull!

[ShiroiHikari]

Mr. Rogers has a nice list of resources on his blog here. I'd recommend checking out YesJapan.com first.

[JaniceMcPherson]

There's 2 types of Japanese to learn:
Casual, useful phrases for travel (Any website can teach you)

Formal Japanese:
To learn this. Read these books in chronological order:
Nakama 1a (Takes 3 months)
Nakama 1b (Takes 3 months)
Yookoso! Continuing with Contemporary Japanese Student Edition (3rd edition) (Takes 6 months)

After finishing Nakama series you should be able to pass a Level 4 JLPT qualifying exam (offered in December once a year in USA).
After finishing Yookoso! you can pass a Level 3 JLPT qualifying exam.
http://www.jlpt.jp/e/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...oficiency_Test

Trust me, if you take any online course, you will be cheating yourself. The above method is the only way to properly learn Japanese. And anything like this takes time.

[airichan623]

Originally posted by Lynna (post: 1386219): due to my extream lack of time and money, I'm trying to learn Japanese over the internet. On my own. Its...sorta working. I've found some helpfull sites, but there is something that confuses me: what is the placement of verbs in a sentance?If anyone knows or knows a site that could help me, I would be very gratfull! Japanese is a very confusing language...but it's fun! I'm working at it... Arigato gozaimasu!

Japanese verbs (at least until reach past a 3rd year of a high school or college level class it) almost always come at the end the sentence. Subjects come first with the -ga (for new subjects) or -wa (for subject/objects used before) afterwards, then objects, with adjectives before subjects. Desu os also is, but can be left out.
This is moderately formal Japanese
Case in point:

I speak Japanese to Lynna. Lynna is a good student. I own a computer, so I talk with various people. I love the CAA.
Watashi-ga Nihongo-o Lynna-e hanashimasu. Lynna-wa ii gakusei desu. Watashi-wa konpyuuta-o mottemasu kara, iroirona hito to hanashimasu. CAA-ga suki desu!

[Mr. Rogers]

I am writing a series of articles on resources for learning the Japanese language.

http://www.jimrogers.me

[Kura Ookami]

Another book for learning the kanji

I notice you recommend James Heisig's Remembering the Kanji, Mr Rogers. I'd like to recommend another books too. Kanji ABC's. The great thing about Kanji ABC's is that you learn the abc's of kanji first, 483 components which the book calls graphemes. Part 1 of the book contains all of these.

Part 2 of the book contains all the joyou kanji. You can use the book in one of two ways. You can learn all the kanji components in part one as a foundation then strudy the kanji in part 2 or learn some of the components, say 10-25 and learn all the kanji that contain these components.

Unlike in Heisig's Remebering the kanji, Kanji ABC's does not provide you with any stories which link together the graphemes and the meanings of the kanjis. I see this as an advantage because I find it easier to remember stories I come up with on my own than stories made up by someone else.

Also unlike Heisig's book you don't have to learn the kanji in any predefined order. In any case, Remembering the Kanji and Kanji ABC's are the only two books I know of which take an elements based approach to learning Kanji. This approach is definately the way to go.

[Mr. Rogers]

I will have to look into the books you have recommended. You don't necessarily have to use the stories defined in Heisig's book. You are totally free to make up your own. In fact, in part two of Heisig's book, he moves from giving you his own stories to leaving you to make your own. The order of the kanji is important in Heisig's book is important because all the new kanji builds on the previous kanji.

I will take a look at the books you recommended today. I always like to have more good resources to recommend to people.

[Lynna]

Arigatogozaimasu !!!!

[Masshiro]

If you have an ipod touch or iphone, I can recommend some applications that have been very useful to me. Also, have you already mastered all of hiragana and katakana?

[Lynna]

I've mastered most of the hiregana, buit not the katakana I''m afraid. I'm also sad to say I don't have either the iphone or ipod touch

[Atria35]

There's a site online called readthekanji.com that could help with the kanji. I've been using it a bit- though it's a bit hard to get the hang of, it does help quite a bit!

[AnimeGirl]

Originally posted by Atria35 (post: 1402520): There's a site online called readthekanji.com that could help with the kanji. I've been using it a bit- though it's a bit hard to get the hang of, it does help quite a bit!

Ooh, is it free? Right now I am currently learning Hirigana (which, if I master that, I can read most things in Japanese if it has Furigana, like in my Nihongo Seisho). Kanji is difficult, but I'd like to know how the kanji combinations and things like that work, and although the calligraphy on that is hard, it'd save alot more space in the bubbles of my manga XD

[Atria35]

Originally posted by AnimeGirl (post: 1403190): Ooh, is it free? Right now I am currently learning Hirigana (which, if I master that, I can read most things in Japanese if it has Furigana, like in my Nihongo Seisho). Kanji is difficult, but I'd like to know how the kanji combinations and things like that work, and although the calligraphy on that is hard, it'd save alot more space in the bubbles of my manga XD

Yep, totally free! You need to sign up for it, and it does have an option where if you pay there are more/different activities, but there's also a free option. I agree that writing it is harder, since the strokes need to be done in a certain order...

[KougaHane]

Originally posted by Lynna (post: 1386219): Japanese is a very confusing language...but it's fun! I'm working at it... Arigato gozaimasu!

Just be glad you're not learning Mandarin. Japanese is actually quite simply once you get past kanji and how backwards it is. It has 2 irregular verbs(kuru and suru), whereas other languages generally have around 20 or more. In Mandarin there's this insidous thing called tones, which means if the pitch of your voice goes down instead of up, you're saying a completely different word! For example, if you say "mei" and the pitch in your voice goes up, it means "younger sister", but if the pitch goes down, it means "no". or maybe its vice versa, i dont remember. I gave up on Mandarin almost as soon as I started. I love languages, but Mandarin= way too hard for me right now. Also it's written like Japanese, but with only kanji.

[Lynna]

@ KougaHane wow that sounds really hard!! Hope I never have to learn Mandarin XD
On thing I have trouble with is particles: I'm always forgetting to put the particle "ka" at the end of my questions
I also simply forget exactly how things should be said...for example, I'll say "nani iro desu ka?" (what colour is it?) when I really mean "kore wa nani iro desu ka?"( what colour is this?) It doesn't make a whole lot of difference but..It's annoyng when I forget
I'm learning www.yesjapan.com and I highly reccomend it

[KougaHane]

I'm using Rosetta Stone but I would only recommend it for those who are really planning on using the language, because it is EXPENSIVE. It's awesome though.

[Bobtheduck]

For vocabulary, you need to make sure every new word you learn goes into this

http://ichi2.net/anki/

Use double sided cards for most things, except maybe kanji stuff (I do single sided, one card for each reading, one for the meaning one card for the meaning of a kanji word, and one card for the reading of a kanji word)

Just make sure you set the limits to something logical (probably 40 new a day, to cover 20 new words or phrases) and DO IT EVERY DAY. It's SO EASY to forget what you learned when you miss a day or two. Like I do regularly... -_-

Using one of the premade sets for Japanese is... IMPOSSIBLE. Those are for advanced learners, only.

Oh, and English approaches 500 irregular verbs, and MANY of them are words we start using early on in life (eat, drink, sit, stand, run, fly...)

[goldenspines]

Originally posted by Lynna (post: 1409521): @ KougaHane wow that sounds really hard!! Hope I never have to learn Mandarin XD On thing I have trouble with is particles: I'm always forgetting to put the particle "ka" at the end of my questions I also simply forget exactly how things should be said...for example, I'll say "nani iro desu ka?" (what colour is it?) when I really mean "kore wa nani iro desu ka?"( what colour is this?) It doesn't make a whole lot of difference but..It's annoyng when I forget I'm learning www.yesjapan.com and I highly reccomend it

Please don't take offense, because I am picky, but it's actually "naniro desu ka?" and "kore wa naniro desu ka?"
It's only when "what" is used by as a noun in a sentence (such as "what are you doing") is when you use "nani" (ex: "nani wo shiteimasu ka?"). Otherwise, it's "nan" with the second word (like color/iro or time/ji).

Also, something that may help you out a lot in your learning is a Japanese/English-English/Japanese dictionary from Kodansha's: Furigana (that's the brand name). It's one of the best dictionaries out there. It has probably the largest selection of words (sometimes more than some online sites) and it gives you examples sentences for the usage of each word or particle you look up. You can get it off of Amazon for just under $35.

[KougaHane]

Lynna I also recommend you learn to associate words with pictures and meanings rather than words with english words. The reason for this is there are some words that really have no english equivalent (rounin, samurai, hebrew hesed, greek agape,) and are often not transalted with 100% accuracy. Also, if you leanr a word based on its meaning rather than just its english counterpart it makes translating so much easier, because rather than having to translate to english first to get the meaning of the sentence, you pretty much skip to just getting the meaning out of the sentence without having to think about what it would be in english.

[ArellaEliora]

hmmm... I'm trying to learn Japanese too, but after reading this I kinda feel depressed
I'm using something called Human Japanese, which to me is very good, but after reading some of your posts I wonder if I'm going about it all wrong. I too am very limited on money and time.

[Bobtheduck]

Originally posted by goldenspines (post: 1410167): Please don't take offense, because I am picky, but it's actually "naniro desu ka?" and "kore wa naniro desu ka?" It's only when "what" is used by as a noun in a sentence (such as "what are you doing") is when you use "nani" (ex: "nani wo shiteimasu ka?"). Otherwise, it's "nan" with the second word (like color/iro or time/ji).

I don't think that's where the distinction is made, actually. Whether it's Nan or Nani has to do, I think, with the way the word sounds, not its grammatical place. You always say nani jin (what nationality) never nan jin, for instance. At least based on what I've learned. "Anata wa nanijin desu ka?"

Which reminds me of another thing I haven't figured out. WHen is Anata OFFENISVE, and when is it NECESSARY. Because both cases are true depending on context.

I wish I hadn't taken so many big breaks from learning Japanese. I know I'd be N3 by now if I'd kept it up. At least N3. Maybe N2 if I'd worked REALLY hard at it, consistently.

[Kaori]

Originally posted by Bobtheduck (post: 1410330): You always say nani jin (what nationality) never nan jin, for instance. At least based on what I've learned. "Anata wa nanijin desu ka?"

Yes, "nanjin" is correct. However, it's much more polite to say "Okuni wa dochira desu ka?" It's not really good to ask someone's nationality by saying "Nanjin desu ka?"

Originally posted by Bobtheduck: Which reminds me of another thing I haven't figured out. WHen is Anata OFFENISVE, and when is it NECESSARY. Because both cases are true depending on context.

I can't give an exhaustive answer to that question, because I can't really say when it is necessary and not rude, except when wives are addressing their husbands (well, even then, it's not really necessary). In polite conversation, it's a good idea to avoid it as much as possible; I almost never use it. Frequently the "you" subject of the sentence is understood, so you don't need to say the grammatical subject at all, like by saying, "Okuni wa dochira desu ka?" instead of "Anata no kuni wa dochira desu ka?" The person you're talking to will understand from context that you're asking what their home country is.

When talking with an acquaintance, I usually use the person's name instead of "anata," for example, "Tanaka-san wa?" This is also what my Japanese acquaintances do when speaking to me--if they want to ask something about me, or ask my opinion of something, they say "[my name] wa?"

You can use the same principle if you are talking to a person with whom you can use a title instead of their name. So, when talking to any doctor/teacher/expert, you can just address the person as "sensei" and nothing else, and it's perfectly normal and polite. Store employees will address customers as "O-kyaku-sama."

I guess that doesn't really answer your question, since I just listed a bunch of ways to avoid using "anata" (for the situations when it is offensive) rather than a rule of thumb to tell whether or not it is offensive. I hope that is at least somewhat helpful, though.

[Bobtheduck]

Originally posted by Kaori (post: 1410486): Yes, "nanjin" is correct. However, it's much more polite to say "Okuni wa dochira desu ka?" It's not really good to ask someone's nationality by saying "Nanjin desu ka?"

Are you Japanese? Just wondering. If you are, this could be another issue of dialect because both the non Japanese host and the Japanese host of Yes Japan, as well as his Japanese voices for the lessons say "Nani jin" And they did say "Anata wa nanijin desu ka?" on at least one video (one I remember is the Korea vs Japan vid, featuring one American, one Korean, and one Japanese girl). No corrections were made by the Japanese member, and while George is American, he has a staff of Japanese people working on the site and Nanijin appears several times in the lessons, with the sound files spoken by his Japanese staff (and possibly his Japanese wife).

[Atria35]

Originally posted by Bobtheduck (post: 1410528): Are you Japanese? Just wondering. If you are, this could be another issue of dialect because both the non Japanese host and the Japanese host of Yes Japan, as well as his Japanese voices for the lessons say "Nani jin" And they did say "Anata wa nanijin desu ka?" on at least one video (one I remember is the Korea vs Japan vid, featuring one American, one Korean, and one Japanese girl). No corrections were made by the Japanese member, and while George is American, he has a staff of Japanese people working on the site and Nanijin appears several times in the lessons.

My Japanese teacher from Japan also would have agreed with Kaori. It was Never nanijin, always nanjin.

[ShiroiHikari]

In the Japanese lessons I've read, they've always made it a point to mention that they don't use "you" in Japanese the same way we do in English and that most times it's better to avoid it. You could say "nanjin/nanijin" but I'd rather be as polite as possible, considering how extremely important politeness is in Japan.

[goldenspines]

Originally posted by Bobtheduck (post: 1410528): Are you Japanese? Just wondering. If you are, this could be another issue of dialect because both the non Japanese host and the Japanese host of Yes Japan, as well as his Japanese voices for the lessons say "Nani jin" And they did say "Anata wa nanijin desu ka?" on at least one video (one I remember is the Korea vs Japan vid, featuring one American, one Korean, and one Japanese girl). No corrections were made by the Japanese member, and while George is American, he has a staff of Japanese people working on the site and Nanijin appears several times in the lessons, with the sound files spoken by his Japanese staff (and possibly his Japanese wife).

I see what you mean and it could be a dialect thing or whatever sounds best for each person, but I have never seen "nani" used without a particle after it (unless it's the short and informal expression "Nani?").
In the classes I took for Japanese, I was learning the "Tokyo dialect"(that's what it was known as, at least) which is assumed to be the most polite and most widely known throughout Japan.
Technically, I believe that nani and nan mean the same thing ("what"), but it rolls off the tongue better/easier to say nanjin or naniro than nanijin or naniiro.
Of course, like Kaori said(and I agree with him/her because she seems to know what s/he is talking about), I've never really heard anyone ask, "Nanjin desu ka?" but rather "Okuni wa dochira desu ka?" because it's a bit more understandable and specific. (nanjin is like asking "what people/-ian are you?")

[Bobtheduck]

While I can't show you the videos unless you're a member, THIS MAY WORK and it's at least part (though a small part) of what I was saying

http://www.yesjapan.com/YJ6/index.ph...earch&var2=ALL
http://www.yesjapan.com/YJ6/index.ph...earch&var2=ALL

Quote: 1. QUESTION SUMMARY: Is there a pattern to using NAN and NANI? responded on: 2002-05-09 Hmmm. There really isn't a pattern. Except that you can't use NAN all by itself. It is always part of another word or combined with NO. NANI can be used all by itself. Most of the times the combined words like NANGATSU (what month), NANYOUBI (what day of the week), NANSAI (how old) are using NAN but some words like NANI-IRO (what color) and NANIJIN (what nationality) and NANIGO (what language) use NANI so as you can see there isn't just one pattern that works. You just have to memorize the words.

It doesn't say who answered the question, but again, the voice sample is recorded TWICE with two different Japanese speakers, both saying nanijin. And they do, normally, do Toukyou-ben. They have people from all over Japan, though.

I've found at leas one site that says "Okuni wa dochira desu ka" is outdated Japanese, and to be honest, many Japanese teacher in the US USE OUTDATED JAPANESE. Mine did. 1/3 of my class was Japanese (my age) and they said her class was horrible because she's so old fashioned.

[Kaori]

Originally posted by Bobtheduck (post: 1410528): Are you Japanese? Just wondering. If you are, this could be another issue of dialect because both the non Japanese host and the Japanese host of Yes Japan, as well as his Japanese voices for the lessons say "Nani jin" And they did say "Anata wa nanijin desu ka?" on at least one video (one I remember is the Korea vs Japan vid, featuring one American, one Korean, and one Japanese girl). No corrections were made by the Japanese member, and while George is American, he has a staff of Japanese people working on the site and Nanijin appears several times in the lessons, with the sound files spoken by his Japanese staff (and possibly his Japanese wife).

Thank you, but no, I'm not Japanese. My qualification is only that I've been living in Japan for three years. Also, I just realized that I completely misread what you were saying and read it as the opposite of what you meant to say. Sorry.

Those links you posted do work, and I see what you're saying. I tried looking up both "nanjin" and "nanijin" in an electric dictionary and also in a print Japanese language Japanese dictionary, but neither of them was listed in either dictionary, so I can't really shed any further light on the issue at the moment. When I return to Japan in a few weeks, I can ask my Japanese colleagues about it, though.

Originally posted by goldenspines: I have never seen "nani" used without a particle after it (unless it's the short and informal expression "Nani?").

Likewise, I've almost never seen or heard "nani" used without a particle. I do know of one exception for certain, and that is 何者, nanimono, which is a very impolite way of saying "who?"